HACKING//HUSTLING & COMRADES FROM RÉEWUM SENEGAAL (SENEGAL): Talking Policing, Safety & The Internet (Full Transcript in English, Wolof & French)

“Grande Causerie”: Part One 

July 13, 2022 *Translation updated 8/2/22*

Where the name “Khady” appears, that is Juliana Friend, whose participation was supported by the Alternative Digital Futures Project at the Center for Long-Term Cybersecurity (CLTC) at UC Berkeley. Juliana Friend is an anthropologist and public health researcher focusing on technology and health. She first met San and Maya in Senegal in 2017.

Full English translations, followed by the original conversational dialogues of Wolof and French. 

Tekki yu mat sëkk ci Àngle, topp ci waxtaani waxtaan yu njëkk ya ci Wolof ak Français.

Traductions complètes en anglais, suivies des dialogues conversationnels originaux en wolof et en français.

Interpreter/translator’s note:

1) I mark in red a few places where I want to check that I am hearing and/or translating the statements properly.

2) I hesitated about whether or not to include and translate what I said as an interpreter: either for clarity, transparency, or both. 

———-

Kira (K): Khady do you want to do the honors of posing the first question in English, but also in Francais or Wolof for us?

Khady (KD): I would…I wonder, Kira, you said it so well. Would you want to do the English version and then I’ll translate?

Kira (K): Sure, yeah!

Fleur (F): I started a google doc.

KD: That’s so helpful, Fleur.

K: So the initial question, the first part of it ; what are our most pressing concerns? That could also mean, the most pressing threats that our communities are facing, both on and offline? We can take turns responding to that and then we can shift.

KD: Perfect.

Sana (S): OK, I will answer. Because what’s hardest about the internet and face to face, on the internet side. We aren’t completely integrated with the internet. For example, when COVID-19 came, many had problems finding work. Because at that moment, we didn’t know how Corona worked. To have contact with people, many people just stopped working. If you take someone like me, I stopped completely, like some other people did. You understand? But the internet, on the one hand, if it had security, it would suit us much better than contact. If it had security, I want to be clear, it would suit us much better. Because on the internet, you don’t risk anything. That’s my brief introduction. We can discuss.

Maya (M): Security, internet, it has security. It has more security compaKira with face to face. [S: that’s what I was saying] in relation to COVID. Because COVID cannot infect you. [S: Exactly!] Even STIs, HIV, they cannot infect you. But the insecurity that the internet has, is what we were talking about. Your image can be recorded, and people can commit blackmail.

S: For example, video.

M: If it’s your voice, too, they can blackmail you

S: So in Senegal. Me, my voice was put on the internet. I showed it to you Khady, do you remember?

KD: Yes.

M: But still, we worked on the internet. But there is no security. If there was security, everyone would be working on the Internet. Because contact is not safe. You can contract STIs, HIV/AIDS, COVID..you know COVID even now is getting people. Currently, today we are at over 100 [cases] in Senegal.

KD: 100 cases today ?

M: 100 cases in Senegal today. So that means that COVID is coming back. So if we can do video calls, that is better.

S: There’s less risk.

M: There’s less risk. But it’s not securitized.

S: It’s not securitized

M: There are some people who, who have means, they prefer to wait for a while, until COVID goes down again. But if there were security, if there were security, everyone would be working on the internet.

S: That is for sure.

M: That is for sure. Even me, who is talking with you right now, will work online.

S: Because there is less disease.

M: You have less disease, you don’t have anything. You stay at home. Your clients will have their pleasure too.

S: That’s right.

4:45 KD interprets.

Èmoussée (E): Thank you for that. That’s so interesting. I have a follow up question if that’s OK. I’m curious, part of what I was hearing was that it’s both the visibility of online sex work that causes a security problem. I’m curious to hear a little bit more about what they conceptualize as security or privacy that would make online sex work a more tenable option.

KD: So, what measures of security would make online sex work more viable? Got it. Yeah, that’s a great question.

E: And I think, what do they mean by security? Is it from the client? Is it just the visibility that makes it feel insecure? I guess I’m curious about elaborating a little bit.

8:15 KD interprets.

NOTE: [ I didn’t adequately convey the « visibility » part of E’s question. My apologies. Something we could return to next time, if you like]

M: Insecurity, it’s in relation to the clients. They can capture video, your image. How they do it, they capture/record and commit blackmail, threaten to post it on the internet. Or they capture your voice, audio. Even on the telephone they can capture your voice. It’s about blackmail. The security that we need, for example, the person who owns Facebook also owns Messenger and Whatsapp. He could arrange it so that whoever uses them can’t capture an image.

S: To protect you.

M: You couldn’t capture an image. You couldn’t capture audio. Therefore you couldn’t do blackmail. That’s what I want to emphasize about security. That’s what I think.

S: That’s what both of us think.

9:50 KD interprets.

F: And we know that technology exists right?

K: Yes it does.

F: Like, Netflix and all the streaming companies made it so that you can no longer even share a video on Zoom. So that, it seems totally possible.

K: It seems almost as if, by design, they don’t care about individuals’ personal safety and security online, and only protecting their property rights, right? And that’s what these major corporations care about. They care about property; they don’t care about people. We know that they can freeze or capture images and use screen recording. We know that they can disable downloading whenever they see fit. We see this all the time internationally, in the United States – like, we know these corporations have the capability to offer us, just people, the same level of protection and privacy considerations that they themselves enjoy as corporate entities. And yet, those things are not extended to us, which means that, rightfully as Maya  and Sana have pointed out, and as Fleur has mentioned, this is the thing that we’re dealing with, is this discrepancy of power and access, right, when it comes to digital and online security.

And I also think about access.  And maybe I’ll end with this as the other thing that I’m thinking about is actual material technology to facilitate transitioning to online work. And I think about the barriers to doing some of that online work, that would make several of us on this call feel safer in transitioning, right, is actually having the means to do that, which means having a computer that can connect to high-speed internet, having high speed internet in the first place, having a stable phone line, having a light, having a phone or a camera device. These are things that can become so exorbitantly priced and out of our reach. And sex workers, everyone needs these things to communicate in our modern society, but sex workers rely on these technologies, and they’re kept so far out of our reach so often. So I’m thinking about access here too as part of this security conversation and personal safety conversation that we’re having.

F: And I would add to that: home. Having a home to work out of. And Khady I know you have a lot to translate so I won’t say more on that, but I will get back to it. [laughter]

KD: No thank you for, you know, marking that.

14:12-17:36  KD interprets.

S: In parenthesis I can share that me, I have two apartments. I’m forced to move between my apartment and where I work. That is to say that it comes back to resources, which is why I’m mentioning this. You know, in my apartment, I can’t talk about everything. I’m forced to travel to [neighborhood X : maybe we should omit the neighborhood name to protect anonymity.] You know? And all of that is part of security. Because here I am free to talk about whatever I want, but at my home, I can’t talk about these things. So as Kira was saying, you have to have somewhere, have your apartment, have this, and that, and that and that. You have to have so many things. And it requires money to obtain them. If you have the means, and a little bit of protection, it will be alright. You can work online, chill, without problems. You won’t have any problems, any worries. Like me, what I was saying. Like now, it’s recording me. For example, you know, zoom, if you record something it says, your call is being recorded. You have to ‘accept’ that. If they had this on the internet in general that would suit us. For example, Khady, if you record me, if there is a message that is sent to me, like, “Khady is recording you.” That way, in an instant, I could stop the call. Or “Khady is doing a screen capture” like Snap. Snapchat. If they do a capture, automatically I will know that Khady is doing a capture. Zoom, just a moment ago, when it started recording, it said, we are recording. Then I’m the one with the right to accept or not. But I accept. If there were security like that, that would suit us. When you record, when you capture, I would know all of that. After that, we can figure out our apartment, our devices, etc etc. Everything. That’s what it’s about.

M: Regarding security, there was one day when I told you [Khady], it’s a computer that I need. Because sometimes when you’re using a small phone, you can’t do what you want to do. But if it was a computer, I could set it here, and while I talk to someone, there it sits. Work would be easier and faster. If it’s a small cell phone, if it’s just this, you can’t do what you want to do. To hold it and do your work at the same time, it’s difficult. If I had a computer, I would have a way to set the screen aside, position it, and turn on the camera. Insecurity, there is something else that is part of the issue in Senegal, and that is the police. Because sometimes you are talking to someone you think is a client, but it’s actually the police.

S: They take our money. Like the day before yesterday, the day before yesterday the police came and stood in the stairway to take my clients, take their money. Anyway, Senegal, Africa, it’s really something.

M: Yes, that happens these days.

S: The police should make us more secure, however they do not make us secure.

M: Exactly

S: If you are a sex worker, they can humiliate you.

M: They can rip you off.

KD: So the police were standing in your house taking your clients, or? I didn’t get that.

S: The police were standing in the stairwell. A police officer came and stood in the stairwell. Waited for a client to enter to receive services, and when he came out again, argued with [the client]. I said, “Commissioner!” I tell him, “get out of the house.” I go up to the commissioner and tell him, you don’t have the right to enter a peaceful house at midnight without an arrest warrant. I talked with him, and he left.

KD: He left, eh?

S: Because I know what I’m talking about. I know my rights. I’ve been at this for a little while now. They have to have an arrest warrant. They should leave the house, they should not enter the house.

M: Good.

S: Just recently I was having an issue with a police officer, and that’s not normal. All of that is part of security. The police should give us security.

M: And you can be talking with a client, but it turns out it is not a client. You’re talking to a police officer.

21:25: KD interprets

E: I just wanted to respond to what I hear Sana talking about, is this culture of consent, and how it’s not built into tech. And I think it goes back into the previous conversation that we were having of how the platforms already have all of these tools. It’s just used to create further violence against marginalized communities. And I think of how when I was deplatformed or kicked off of Instagram for being a sex worker, my IP address was banned, so I wasn’t allowed to make a new account on [the/a ?] device. But for many years when someone was harassing me online or stalking me, I couldn’t block all of them. And I think Instagram just gives this option now, in the last year or two, when the technology has been around for many years. And so there’s this power dynamic where these technologies exist, but it’s who has access to them. And this idea that this culture of consent isn’t built into technology when so much of what tech does is just extract data. They’re almost dependent on our lack of consent to have this type of relationship. And I love what Sana was saying about the Zoom notification, which is really quite new. I think it came out, like, two years into the pandemic, asking people for consent to record, which is such a small thing, but it provides this space where you’re able to consent with how you’re interacting with a technology that you’re working with. I think there’s so much more that we could see built into technology to give users more choice of how they interact with technology. I guess I can stop there for translation, or if anyone had something they wanted to add.

KD: Maybe if you wouldn’t mind, I’ll just translate that. I think maybe in smaller chunks, I might be able to do a slightly better job. So thank you for that.

26:49  KD interprets

M: What you were talking about makes sense. Because already, those who own the technology seek money, as you were saying. They’re after money. If they know that if they did something, they wouldn’t get money, then that wouldn’t work for them. They wouldn’t take it down. They’d refuse. What brings money, that’s what they want out of that.So they’re looking out for their own interests. Their interests. Not our interests, but their own interests. They’re looking at what they can gain, rather than what we can lose. That’s the problem. That’s the disadvantage.

30:25 KD interprets

NOTE : In this one I made an interpretation of what Maya was saying when I added “…is consent in their financial interests?” Kira responds to this question.

K: Yeah, that’s the question. And I think as we can see, unless people collectively demand and organize, put pressure on and use literally every effort in our means to try and curtail the kind of, extremely violent profit-motivated, right, anti-people policies and practices and terms of service, etc., that these tech companies have, we’re not going to see change. And even still, I try to remain hopeful, that we can really create and imagine ways of utilizing technology. But it is very apparent that these companies, left to their own devices, we wouldn’t even have what we have currently, which is not enough. And so, I think that might transition us into talking about what we do in the meantime.

Hacking//Hustling + Sénégal Comrades Conversation “Grande Causerie”: Part Two

August 8th, 2022

Interpreter/translator’s note:

1. Maya and Sana indicated a few identifiable people and institutions, so these have been removed. 
2. I’ve highlighted in red some other potential identifiers that we haven’t yet discussed together.

3. In blue are some notes or questions for you. I put these in-text rather than in comments because I thought it might be easier to read on a mobile device. Also in blue – I added a few context clues in parenthesis that you can delete, keep or change.

4.  In green, these are words or sentences that I want to check with you. I’m not sure I heard, captuKira, or interpreted them correctly.

——————————————————————————————————————— 

Sana (S): Kii mooy Fleur. Fleur.

Sana: This is Fleur. Fleur.

Fleur (F): Yes?

FleuK: Oui?

S: Very nice. Maangi commencer men de. Khady, maangi commencer wax Anglais.

S: Very nice. I’m starting to be able to. Khady, I’m starting to speak English.

F: Ah yah, I gotta learn some French. I was trying to learn Spanish over the summer but—

F: Ah oui, je dois apprendre le Francais. J’essayais d’apprendre l’espanol cet été mais –

Khady (KD): There’s some crossover

KD: Il y a quelques similarités.  

F: Yah

F: Oui.

KD: Just French pronunciation is crazy but.

KD: La pronunciation en Francais est un peu fou mais.

S: Wolof moo gen a yomb

S: Wolof is easier.

Maya (M): Mu jang Wolof. Wolof moo gen a yomb.

Maya (M): She should learn Wolof. Wolof is easier.

F: Ah alright, good tip.

F: Oui ok. Bon conseil.

S: Langue Nationale u Sénégal. 

S: The national language of Sénégal.

F: Mm Hmm

F: Oui oui.

KD: Anyway, would someone want to kick us off, maybe read the agenda?

KD: En tout cas, est-ce qu’il y a quelqu’un qui voudrait démarrer, peut-etre lisant l’agenda?

S: OK

S: OK

F: Do you want me to read it in English and then you read it in French and Wolof?

F: Voudrais-tu que je le lise en Anglais et puis tu peux le lire en Francais et en Wolof?

KD: Sure, yeah.

KD: Oui c’est bon.

F: Ok cool, so the three things that we said we were going to come back to: first, legal models. Second, talking through how we navigate our safety concerns, and especially collective demands. And we wanted to learn more about sutura. And then last, just talking about how sex workers use the internet.

F: OK cool, alors les trois points dont on voulait continuer de discuter sont d’abbord, les systems de loi. Deuxièmenet, discuter comment gérer la sécurité, et surtout le plaidoyer collectif. Et nous voulions apprendre plus à propos de sutura. Et finalement, discuter comment les professionels du sexe utilisent l’internet.

M: Première question, ci loi bi. Loi u PS yi, benn la. Parce-ce que su fekkee ne par exemple, à chaque fois da nu ne, avec la police, bu gniowee seen ker, amul droit dugg seen biir ker. Yaw en tant que PS, da nga wara am sa carnet sanitaire. Nga nekk en règles, nga respecter say rendez-vous, nekk en règles. Sinon police bu gniowee, parce-ce que loolu ci loi bi la bokk. Carnet sanitaire, ci loi bi la bokk. Respecter say rendez-vous. Dem say rendez-vous regulièrement. Su fekkee ne nga begg a baay, nga bind lettre ne da nga rajje. Nga ne pour quelle raison nak. Boo rajjee tamit, nga rajje un mois, walla quelques jours, walla deux mois, marier, walla voyager, dem nu [inaudible]. Boo gniowatee encore –

M: The first question, about the law. Law about sex workers is one thing. Because if there is for example, every time we say, with the police, when they enter your home, they don’t have the right to come inside your home. As a sex worker, you have to have your health notebook. You are following the rules. If not, when the police come, because that’s part of the law. The health notebook is part of the law. Attend your medical visits. Go to your medical visits regularly. If you want to leave sex work, you write a letter saying that you are leaving sex work. You give the reason. When you leave sex work also, you leave sex work for one month, or some days, or two months, you get married, travel, go where [inaudible]. When you come back again –  

S: Def sa bilan en même temps

S: You do your checkup again.

M: Nga defat sa bilan. Pour l’inscription pour nga am carnet, dangay def bilaM: VIH, ak IST, yooyu nga koy def. Première fois bi. Benn day dem Hopital Dantec. Sa photo, quatre photos.

         KD: est-ce que tu voudrais anonymizer l’hopital?

M: You do your checkup again. For registration to get your notebook, you do a checkup: HIV and STIs, you do that. The first time. One copy goes to the Dantec Hospital. Your photo, four photos.

S: Quatre photos.

S: Four photos.

M: Ak sa carte domicile bi wone fi nga dekk.

M: With your residence card that shows where you live.

S: Pour nga men a legale.

S: So that you can be legal.

M: Pour nga men a légale am carnet. Soo amee carnet leggi nak, chaque mois dangay gniow rendez-vous. Boo gniowee di nanu la xol, def ay bilan. Chaque six mois def le bilan. Bilan surtout VIH bi. Tous les six mois. Soo amee carnet. Leggi nak, ci lois u Sénégal. Loi bi ba tey, avec le carnet, du la permettre taxaw dans la rue pour le racolage.

M: So that you can be legal and have your health notebook. Once you have your health notebook now, every month you come for your visit. When you come they will look at you, do the checkups. Every six months you do the checkup. Checkup especially for HIV. Every six months. If you have the notebook. Now then, in Sénégalese law. The law even now, with the notebook, doesn’t permit you to stand in the street and do solicitation.

S: Et dans la maison.

S: And in the house.

M: Non dans la maison sax c’est pas interdit. Mais pour sécurité. Parce-ce que un jour on a rencontré le commissaire centrale, man ak une collègue

[nom et titre omis] 

M: No, in the house, well, that’s not prohibited. But for security. Because one day we met the commissioner, me and a colleague

[name and job title omitted]

S: Ok.

S: OK.

M: Da nu ne carrément, la loi n’interdit pas. Parce-ce que kenn amul sa droit dugg ca biir ker. Benn. Parce-ce que tu n’as pas agressé. Tu n’as rien fait d’illégal. Tu es dans ta maison. Tu exerces ton travail là-bas. Donc amul droit dugg ci sa biir ker. Mais problème u sécurité. Parce-ce que parfois ton client, nga fekk bandit la.

M: They say plainly, the law does not prohibit that. Because nobody has the right to enter your house. First, Because you haven’t committed violence. You have done nothing illegal. You’re in your house. You’re going about your work there. So they have no right to enter your home. But it’s a problem of security. Because sometimes your client, it turns out they’re a bandit.

S: Bandit la, waaw.

S: They’re a bandit, yes.

M: Am na ay cas yoo xam ne, danu gniow, mesoon xew ak femme bi. Mais danu ko ot, mu de, soti capote ci kawam, jel xalisam, ak femme bi da fa tejjuwoon, waaw. Da nu yobbu xalisam.

M: There are cases where, they come, have never been with the woman before. But they [??? KD: checking word with Maya ] her. She dies. They throw condoms on top of her, take her money, and the woman was shut in her room, yes. They took her money.

S: Waaw!

S: Yes!

M: Fekk xale bi tatam, yaram u nen. Seeni dekkando danu xey gis ko noonu rek, fegg fegg fegg fegg. Parce-ce que danu baay ba tejju. Après nu fekk mu de.

M: The young woman was completely naked. Her neighbors woke up and found her like that. Knock, knock, knock, knock. Because they’d left her and shut her in her room. After they found her dead.

S: Loolu fan la?

S: Where was this?

M: Et puis il y a tant d’autres. Am na Sacre Coeur, am na fi Guediawaye, am na Pikine, tant d’autres. Meme Grand Yoff. Bere na ay cas. Benn Tali la dernière fois. Danu yew rek mu fekk mu de. Parce-ce que loolu mooy inconvénient. Boo gisee police bu gniow ci bir ker yi, mais police bi bu gniowee ci biir ker yi, c’est pas normale. Danuy leen woo en tant que client. Danu wax ak nyoom ba nu agsi, bu nu gniowee nak, da nu ne, c’est la police. Xam nanu amul droit gniow fi, mais danu begg lekk sa xalis. Danu begg traquer pour lekk ci yaw xalis. Bu nu xamee ne yaw danga nekk en règles, et puis xam nga say droits, danu naan ba jox leen nu jend gazoile. Nu jox leen.

M: And there are many others. There are some in Sacre Coeur, there is Guediawaye, there is Pikine, many others. Even Grand Yoff. There are so many cases. Benn Tali last time. They just woke up and found her dead. Because that’s the downside. When you see police coming into the home, but police that comes into the home, that’s not right. They’ll call you as a client. We talk with them until they arrive, until they come and they say, it’s the police. They don’t have a right to come here, but they want to eat up your money. They want to track you down and eat your money. When they find out that you, you’re following the rules, and then that you know your rights, they plead until we give them money for gas. We give it to them.

S: Waaw noonu lay deme.

S: Yes that’s how it goes.

M: Mais sinon, problème bi mooy, sunu loi bi, obsolète la. Parce-ce que loi boo xam ne–

M: But apart from that, the problem is our law. It’s obsolete. Because it’s a law that –

S: Nyoom nyoo nu wara protéger, mais lunuy def—

S: Them, they should protect, but what they do –

M: Kenn du ko appliquer. Te bu nu ko appliquee aussi tamit, nyoom nax lanuy def. Parce-ce que doo xam ne amoo droit racoler. Parce-ce que c’est depuis ‘68 ba leggi. Xam nga loolu yag na. Doo taxaw ci mbed mi racoler. Police bu la fekkee, mu yobbu la. Benn. Walla nga fekk ci biir ker, ou bien dans les bars et tu n’es pas en règles,  mu yobbu la. Hotel dangay dugg hotel, gen, fekk police taxaw ci buntu hotel bi di la xar.

M: No one applies it. And when they apply it, they trick you. Because you may not know that you don’t have the right to solicit. Because it’s since ’68 up until now. You know, that’s old. You can’t stand in the street soliciting. Police if they find you there, they’ll take you away. First. Or if you’re inside a house, or you’re at bars and you are not following the rules, they’ll take you away. A hotel, you’ll enter a hotel, work, and find police waiting for you in the hotel doorway.

S: Jel li nga yoor.

S: Take the money you have.

M: Jel li nga yoor. C’est pas normale. Parce-ce que finalement di nga naan yaw, carnet bi, pour lan la? Dangay naan, looy def ak carnet bi?

M: Take the money you have. It’s not normal. Because in the end, you’ll ask, the notebook, what is it for? You’ll ask, what do you do with the notebook?

S: Meme boo ligueyoo, dinanu yakar ne xalis bi—

S: Even if you’re not working, they will believe that the money –

M: Bu dee policer bi xamee, di nga xey parfois pour dem au marché, pour dem duggu. Nu ndaje ak yaw ci marché bi, lajj sa carnet. Alors que tu n’es pas au lieu de travail. Tu es venue au marché pour faire des achats, aller cuisiner pour manger. Mais danu xame la, jel sa carnet. Nga ne leen yoor uma carnet, marché laay dem. Nu ne [inaudible].

M: If a police officer knows, you’ll wake up in the morning sometimes to go to the market, to go in. They meet you in the market, ask for your notebook. But you’re not even in a place of work. You came to the market to buy things, to go cook and eat. But they make you, take your notebook. You tell them, I didn’t bring my notebook, I’m going to the market. They say [inaudible].

S: Alors que c’est pas normale.

S: But that’s not right.

M: Kon finalement loi bi da fa nekk obsolète dal.

M: So ultimately the law is obsolete then.

S: Amatoo vie privée. Loolu, amoo vie priveé parce-ce que bunu fekkee—

S: You don’t have a private life anymore. That, you don’t have a private life because if –

M: Sunu loi bi ca date depuis longtemps. Ancien loi bi, depuis 1968 jusqu’à présent. Boobu ba leggi nuungi liguey pour changer ko, mais kan mooy wax assemblé affaire u PS? Kan moo koy def? Parce-ce que la dernière fois amoon na déjà une personne ayant des opinions favorables aux populations marginalisées [titre et organisme omis]. Normalement war nga ko xam, yaw. Mais il était parlementaire. Mais il n’a jamais défendu les PS là-bas. Il ne l’a jamais fait. Et qui va maintenant défendre les PS?

JF : Maya , est-ce que cette mesure d’anonymisation est suffisante? En plus, est-ce que ça reflète ce que tu voulais dire ?

M: Our law has been around a long time. It’s an old law, dating from 1968 until the present. All that time we’ve been working to change it, but who is going to talk about sex workers’ issues in the [national] assembly? Who’s going to do it? Because last time there was already a person with views favorable to marginalized populations [title and organization omitted]. Normally you, you should know. But they were in parliament. But they never defended sex workers there. They never did that. And now who will defend sex workers?

S: C’est ça.

S: That’s it.

M: On a actuellement pour la loi, on a aucune loi actuellement. Parce-ce que le policier fait ce qu’il veut.

M: Currently as for the law, we don’t have any law currently. Because the police officer does what he wants.

S: En fait kenn nemeul défendre parce-ce que da nu ruus défendre. Par rapport aux États-Unis.

S: In fact no one dares defend because they are afraid of defending. In contrast to the United States.

M: Yaw yaay def rek. Ak policier, boo nekkee, dangay naxante ak moom, danga wara ko baay nga dem. Mais am na nu [inaudible 10:25-10:29 ]

M: You you’re doing this. And the police officer, if you’re there, you’re going back and forth with him. You should leave me be. But there are [inaudible]

S: Comme nyoom danuy plaidoyer, am unu loolu.

S: Like them, they do advocacy. We don’t have that.

M: Amul comme aux etats-unis. Mais fii, on a fait le plaidoyer dans tous les commissariats de Dakar, ici ici. A Dakar avec une ONG On a fait le plaidoyer. Mais rien. On ne peut rien. Meme le gouvernement ne peut rien. Finalement, ils ont maintenant fait le cadre de kii [inaudible 10:54-10:55].

M: Not like in the United States. But here, we’ve done advocacy in every police station in Dakar. Here, here. In Dakar with an NGO. We’ve done advocacy. But nothing. We can’t make anything happen. Even the government can’t do anything. In the end, they’ve made a kind of [inaudible].

S: Am de l’argent c’est tout. Ku soxla xalis dal, day dem ci PS. Ku sooxla, homme de tenu, ku sooxla, sécurité, ci PS lanuy dem. Mooy evenements, mooy Tabaski, mooy fete, sunu sooxla xalis ci PS lanuy dem.

S: Having money is everything. Whoever needs money like, they go to the sex worker. Whoever needs it, men in uniform, whoever needs it, security forces, they go to sex workers. On event days, on Tabaski, on holidays, if they need money they go to sex workers.

M: Ci PS lanuy gniow. Finalement c’est pas la peine nu amati carnet. Ku amul carnet –

M: It’s sex workers they go to. In the end it’s not worth having a notebook anymore. People with the notebook –

S: Est-ce que carnet di nanu eliminer?

S: Is the notebook going to be eliminated?

M: Déjà ku amul carnet, clandestine bi, normalement bu koy jappee, moom war na tudd 6 mois à un an de prison.

M: Already the person without a notebook, the clandestine person, normally when they catch them, they have to stay six months to a year in prison.

S: Ak amendes.

S: With fines.

M: Plus amendes. Mais actuellement c’est pas le cas. Clandestines elles sont plus libres que nous qui sont en règles.

M: With fines. But currently that’s not the case. The clandestines are freer than those of us who follow the rules.

KD:Ca c’est intéressant.

KD:That, that’s interesting.

M: Danuy graisser. Elles sont prètes à donner 50 mille ba ci kaw. Kon kenn du la japp. Alors que sunu coté nous, 5 milles lanu koy jox. Kon nyoom nyoo gen a nekk en règles que nous.[11:50] Loolu c’est la première question.

M: They pay them. They are ready to give 50 thousand and above. So no one will arrest them. Whereas for us, 5 thousand is what we give. So them, they are more in line with the rules than us. That’s the first question.

KD:Xanaa ma traduire loolu parce-ce que c’est très intéressant.

KD:Maybe I’ll translate that because it’s very interesting.

M: Danuy bokk gis gis rek.

M: We just share the same point of view.

[12:14-12:48 I’ll summarize this comprehension check for now, but am happy to also translate directly if preferKira– I check that I understood right, that it is their colleague who died. Maya  confirms, says this is one example of many.

Je vais faire un résumé pour l’instant, mais si vous le préférez, je peux traduire le moment où je vous demande si j’ai bien compris. –  Je verifie que j’ai bien compris,  qu’une collègue est mort. Maya  dit que c’est le cas, et que cas yu mel nonu bere nanu]

Y : [23 :36] Da ma tit. Gisoo bi ma waxoon loolu da ma tit. Da ma tit sax. Parce-ce que mooy loolu, da fa triste.

Y : I was scared. Didn’t you see, when I said that I was scared. Even me, I was scared. Because that’s how it is. It’s sad.

N : Loolu bere na de. Da ma leen xam. Danuy dem hopital. Da ma leen…

N : It happens often. I know some of them. We go to the hospital. For them I…

K: Khady, thank you so much for leading us through the translation. I’m wondering if you can convey first, just thanks to both of our comrades for sharing. That really kind of paints a much clearer picture for me about the situation. But also if you could convey condolences and rage about the passing, the murder, of their comrade and colleague and fellow worker. I’d really appreciate that. I’m deeply saddened to hear that. And also, something that I just wanted to articulate before it left my brain, was just like how again, internationally, it is so clear that state-based regulation and legalization models do such immeasurable violence to sex working communities. And that you know, the decriminalization of all survival, including everyone’s labor in the sex trades, is just so underscored with every story that Maya and Sana have shared, you know? And coupled with that, the absolute, like, ah I’m losing my train of thought because I was very emotionally activated by that translation. Just the way in which it’s so clear that even if the law was updated, police are going to do what police are going to do, right? They will overstep. They will exert power and force. And we see that here, right, in all manner of, police are not supposed to destroy or seize condoms anymore, if they find condoms on people that they stop and yet that continues to happen and worse. Worse things than that continue to happen also and so it’s not just about making the laws up to date, but really about questioning who those laws serve in the first place. And the clandestine – I was picking up on that word a lot and I was very curious to see how that was going to factor in here. And yah, doing work kind of off the books, right, it makes sense. It makes sense because the health screenings don’t seem to actually serve the people. They’re these arbitrary mechanisms of control from the state, right? And I wanted to ask a clarifying question about those too. Because I think I might know the answer to it, but it might be doubly damning to underline it here. Do the workers have to assume the costs associated with such screenings and health book maintenance as well? Cause I can only imagine that that’s probably the case, and just the financial violence and kind of extortion by the state in that regard too. And I’ll stop there because I know that’s a lot. I really appreciate conveying that back Khady.

K: Khady, merci de nous avoir aidé avec la traduction. Je me demande si tu peux tout d’abord remercier nos deux camarades d’avoir partagé avec nous. Vraiment cela me donne une image beaucoup plus claire de la situation. Mais de plus si tu pourrais donner des condoléances et communiquer la colère à propos de la mort, le meurtre, de leur camarade et collègue et collègue de travail. Je l’apprécierais beaucoup. Je suis triste d’avoir cette nouvelle, profondément. Et en plus, il y a quelque chose à dire avant que je l’oublie, c’est qu’encore une fois, sur le plan international, il est évident que la réglementation étatique et la modèle de légalisation font une violence incommensurable aux communautés de professionnels du sexe. Et tu sais, la décriminalisation de tout effort de survivre, y compris le travail de tous les PS, est mis en relief par chaque histoire que Maya et Sana racontent, tu sais ? Et en plus, l’extrême, c’est-à-dire, ah, je perds le fil de mes pensées parce ce que cette traduction a activé beaucoup de sentiments en moi. Mais en tout cas, la manière dans laquelle il est tellement évident que même si la loi était mise à jour, la police ferait ce que la police ferait, n’est-ce pas ? Ils vont au-delà. Ils vont exercer leur pouvoir et leur force. Et on peut voir cela, par exemple, la police ne doit plus détruire ou saisir les préservatifs, s’ils trouvent que les gens ont des préservatifs, mais malgré tout, toujours ça se passe, et pire. Et on voit des choses pires que ça donc il ne suffit pas de mettre à jour les lois, sinon de demander, en première place, ces lois servent à qui.  Et la clandestine – j’ai entendu ce mot à plusieurs reprises et j’étais très curieuse de voir le rôle qu’elle joue. Et oui, travailler d’une manière non-enregistrée, ça fait du sens. Ça fait du sens parce ce que les bilans de santé ne semblent pas d’avancer le bien-être des gens. Il s’agit des mécanismes de contrôle arbitraires de l’état, n’est-ce pas? Et je voulais poser une question de clarification. Parce-ce que peut-être je sais déjà la réponse, mais il est possible que ça serait encore plus accablant si elles le disent maintenant. Les travailleurs, est-ce que c’est à eux de payer les frais des bilans et des carnets aussi ? Parce-ce que j’imagine que c’est le cas, et la violence financière et cette extorsion étatique dans ce contexte. Et je vais arrêter là parce-ce que je sais que c’est beaucoup. Je l’apprécierais beaucoup Khady si tu pourrais transmettre ce message.

F: I just echo Kira’s condolences too, and also just rage. But just echo everything Kira said, that this is clearly not about protecting or keeping sex workers safe. So I have a question but I’ll wait until after you translate.

F: Je voudrais amplifier les condoléances de Kira, et aussi, ma colère. Mais pour amplifier tout ce que Kira avait dit, il est évident qu’il ne s’agit pas de protéger les PS ou de protéger leur sécurité. Donc j’ai une question mais je vais attendre jusqu’à ce que la traduction soit complète.

 [Note sur la traduction : J’ai inclus ci-dessus une petite partie de la traduction parce-ce que Sana répond directement à la question que je viens de traduire]

[Translation note: For now I put in the bit of translation below because it shows the question that Sana is directly answering]

KD: Et ne na, même su fekkee ne, elle a posé la question, même su fekkee ne loi bi da fa changer, est-ce que police di na soppi jikkoam? Meme su fekkee ne loi bi da fa changer, est-ce que police di na continuer def li muy def?

KD: And they said, even if, they posed the question, even if the law changes, will the police change their behavior? Even if the law changes, will the police continue to do what they do?

S: Bien sur. Parce-ce que bu nuy gen, seen chef dunu koy yeg. Boo demee ba ci chef bi, xam nga lan lanuy wax? Menoo nax, ngeen waxtaan ak nyoom, ngeen joxleen dara nu dem bala nu tarder seen liguey, chef bi loolu lanuy wax. Commissaire ci boppam. Xam nga lu may wax. Mes nanu daw, nu dem ba ci commissaire, da fa ne, doo leen jox moo gen tarder seen liguey. Imagine-toi parce-ce que commissaire bi moo nekkul police bu ndaw bi. Moo nekkul agent. Commissaire bi moo nekk gradé, nekk commissaire. Xam nu luy dox. Leggi danuy baay ba seen jour u Dimanche, nyoo dugg ci lieu bi fekk seen chef ne, duggleen.

S: Of course. Because who goes out, their chief won’t [checking comprehension w/ Sana]. If you go all the way to the chief, you know what they’ll say? You can’t fool them, you discuss with them, you give them something so that they go without delaying their work, that’s what the chief says. The commissioner himself. That’s what they tell me. Once we ran to the comissioner, and he said, why don’t you give them something so you don’t delay their work. Imagine that, because the commissioner is not a basic police officer. He’s not an agent. A comissioner is ranked, he’s become a commissioner. He knows how things work. So now they wait until their day of rest, they go find their chief, and give him some of the money.

M: Ba wedduwoon.  [25:42]

M: And deny what happened.

S: Wedd bu sorree. En tout cas, ci mois bi di ngeen gis trois ou quatre fois. Di ngeen gis yu bere bere bere. Mais xolal, Khady. Liguey u Sénégal da fa meti. Surtout Afrique. C’est pas Sénégal seulement de. C’est partout en Afrique. Liguey bu metti, metti, metti. Da fa metti. Yaangi liguey, toonoo kenn. C’est ton corps. Mais policiers yi, da nu mel ne, nyoom nyoo moom sa corps. Yoo moomoo sa koor. Nyoom nyoo [26] moom sa corps.

S: Deny everything. In any case, within the month you’ll see it three or four times. You will see it a lot, a lot, a lot. But look Khady. Work in Sénégal is difficult. Especially in Africa. It’s not just Sénégal eh. It’s everywhere in Africa. Hard, hard, hard work. It’s hard. You do your work, hassling nobody. It’s your body. But police officers, they make it seem like it’s them who own your body. You don’t own your body. They have ownership over your body.

M: Dangay liguey di leen jox.

M: You work and then give them money.

S: Di leen jox. Pour quelle raison?

S: Give them money. For what reason?

M: Danuy liguey di faay ko fin du mois.

M: We work and then pay them at the end of the month.

S: Danuy liguey di faay ko fin du mois di ko yobbu seen famille. Bunu ligueyee da nu leen jox nyoom. Pour quelle raison? Xolal, gis nga femme bi di dee noonu noonu. Bu nu woowoon policiers yi leggi leggi, nu ne da nuy xol. Policiers yi nyo jekk a yaq. Au lieu nu sutural ko, da nu yaq. “Femme bi, Caaga la!”

S: We work and then pay them at the end of the month so they can bring it to their family. When we work we give money to them. For what reason? Look, you know the woman who died like that. When they call the police now, now, they say they’ll look into it. Police officers are the first ones to mess it up. Instead of giving her sutura, they ruin her. “This woman is a prostitute!”

M: Amul enquête.

M: There’s no investigation.

S: “Femme bi, Caaga la!”

S: “This woman is a prostitute!”

M: Cas bi du am benn suivie. Cas bi amul benn enquête.

M: This case there won’t be any follow up. This case there is no investigation.

S: Du am enquête. Du am suivie. Du am dara. Gis nga boo demee bi tribunal, président tribunal soo gisee day ne kii, jaaykat u boppam la. Nii lanu koy waxee, sans vergogne. “Lii la, PS la.” Carrément. Nit da fa wara ko sutural. Mais nun, day mel ku nuy humilier. Day mel ne kuy nyak sutura. Mooy loolu de.

S: There won’t be an investigation. There won’t be follow up. There won’t be anything. You see, when you go to the tribunal, the president of the tribunal says, her, she sells herself. This is how they talk about her, without shame. “She’s a this, she’s a sex worker.” Outright. People should be given sutura. But them, she’s like someone they humiliate. She’s like someone who doesn’t deserve sutura. That’s what it is.

M: Du am suivie. Du am dara. [inaudible].

M: There won’t be follow up. There won’t be anything. [inaudible].

S: Loolu baaxul. Nit bu deewee, même bu fekkee ne PS la, da fa wara am suivie. Nu topp ko, dem tejj ku ko rey. Mais du enquête du suivie. Pour quelle raison ? Danuy fatte ku ko rey, mais lu bonn rek lanuy wax.  Da nu ne, xolal, kii da fa de ci neggam. Capotes yi. Li ak li. Danuy yaq nderam. Mais kan mooy genee la?

S: That is bad. When.a person dies, even if they are a sex worker, there should be follow up. They should follow up, continue on until they lock up the person who killed her. They say, look, her, she died in her room. Condoms, this and that. They sully her name. Now who is going to help you?

M: Dans les journaux da nu ne, on a tué une prostituée dans sa chambre.

[27:28]

M: In the newspapers they say, a prostitute was killed in her room.

S: Leggi kan mooy genee la? Du police, walla sapeurs du gniow pour sauver. Kan mooy genee loolu? Su fekkee ne sapeurs yi, na lanu xamee? Da nu wax ne, nit ka da nu ko rey.

S: Now who is going to help you? It’s not the police, or soldiers, they won’t come to save you. Who is going to help you? If it’s soldiers, what are they going to tell people? They just say, this person was killed.

KD: Loolu lanu tek ci journal bi walla?

KD: That’s what they put in the newspaper or?

M: Waaw, waaw.

M: Yes, yes.

S: Bien sûr! Loolu lanuy tek. Loolu lanuy wax.

S: Of course! That’s what they put. That’s what they say.

M: Prostituée.

M: Prostitute.

S: Mais normalement, nit bu dee, nga gniow fekk ko ba ci biir neeg, yaw en tant que homme de tenue, ma nam sapeur , mooy policier walla gendarme, sutural ko. Sunu la lajjee, nga ne, jigeen lanu rey ci neegam. Mais danuy wax PS bu dee ci biir neegam. Client moo ko rey. Loolu lanu koy waxee.

S: But normally, a person who is dead and you find them in their room, you as a man in uniform, that is a soldier, a police officer or a gendarme, you should give her sutura [“confidentiality” or “discretion”].[1] If you’re asked, you say, a woman was killed in her room But they say a sex worker is dead in her room. The client killed her. That’s how they talk about it.

M: Noonu lanu koy waxee.

M: That’s how they talk about it.

S: Ci journal yi. Alors que ce n’est pas normale. Entre parenthèse, entre parenthèse. Nun ni policiers yi bu nu gniowee ci nun, da nu yaqampti pour dem denc sunuy préservatifs. Sinon bu nu gniowee lu nu jekk a def mooy sacc sunuy préservatifs. Am na benn jour boo xam ne da nu sacc sunuy préservatifs, sacc sunuy 70 mille francs.

S: In the newspaper. But that’s not normal. In parenthesis, in parenthesis. Us, when police officers come to us, they are quick to go and keep our condoms. Otherwise, when they come the first thing they do is steal our condoms. One day they stole our condoms, stole 70 thousand francs.[2]

KD:70 mille francs?

KD:70 thousand francs?

S: 70 mille francs. Temps boobu nuungi [nom du quartier anonymisé]. Cette jour préservatifs yepp lanuy sacc. Loolu dal nanu [nom du quartier anonymisé]. Loolu mootax bunu gniowee automatiquement danuy denc sunuy baggages. Sinon buno ko gisee di nanu ko sacc, te doo ci men dara. Danuy gawante quoi. Danuy def teff teff, gaw. Boo xamee ne nyoom la rek, danuy nebb préservatifs yepp ak sunu xalis. Sinon men nanu ko sacc. Danu koy sacc. Am na bu mujj bi, sunu telephone lanu sacc. Telephone bu ndaw bi.

S: 70 thousand francs. At that time we were in [name of neighborhood removed]. That day they stole all of our condoms. At that time we were in [name of neighborhood removed]. That’s why when they come, we automatically hide our belongings. If not when they see it they will steal it, and you won’t be able to do anything about it. They’re fast eh. They’re quick quick, fast. When you just know it’s them, we’ll hide all the condoms and our money. If not they can steal it. They steal it. Recently, they stole our phone. That small phone.

M: Waaw

M: Yes

S: [le son n’est pas clair à 32:49-52. [Inaudible ]. Heureusement benn rek lanu yobbu. Loolu day arriver tamit de.

S: [Inaudible] Thankfully they only took one. That also happens sometimes.

F : I’m sorry, fines for what exactly ? Fines for having condoms ?

33:28-33:38  NOTE : Here Fleur is asking about fines because Khady had misunderstood Sana and mis-translated the part about the 70,000 francs. If useful for context, I can include that section of my translation.

Fleur demande des éclaircissements parce-ce que Khady avait mal compris Sana et Khady n’avait pas bien traduit la référence au 70 mille. Si c’est utile, pour donner du context,  je pourrais inclure cette portion de la traduction.

S: Da nu ci deffoon ci lekket. Lekket. Lunuy liguey. Au nombre de 8 personnes, nu jel xalis bi.

S: What they did was eat money. Eating money, what we make. Eight people, they took our money.

KD:  Ah OK. Thank you for clarifying that. I misunderstood. It wasn’t a fine but they took 140 dollars from them. Sorry, that was my misunderstanding.

KD:  Ah OK. Merci d’avoir demandé, d’avoir éclairci ca. Je n’avais pas compris. Ce n’était pas une amende mais ils avaient pris 70 mille.

F: So it’s just theft. It’s just police, yah, OK.

F: Donc il s’agit du vol. C’est juste la police, oui, OK.

KD:  So thank you for asking that Fleur.

KD:  Merci d’avoir demandé, Fleur.

M: Leggi carnet bi –

N : Now, the notebook

Y : Dangay faay

Y : You pay..

N : Carnet bi danu koy jend 1000 francs. Leggi ticket consultation 1000 francs

M: We buy the notebook for 1000 francs[3]. Now the ticket for an appointment is 1000 francs.

S: Chaque mois.

S: Every month.

M: Chaque mois. Loolu c’est chaque mois. Mais carnet bi su fesee walla bu reree dangay jend.

M: Every month. That’s every month. But when the notebook is full or it gets lost you buy another.

S: Ak lunuy xol sa tat. [35:12]

S: And for them to examine your genitals.

M: Non non loolu am na. loolu kenn du ko jend.

M: No no that’s provided, no one buys that.

S: Man bis ba leggi da ma koy jend 600.

S: Me the whole time I’ve bought it for 600.

M: Xanaa foof, fekk mu manquer.

M: Maybe in that case, there’s not enough.

S: Ah ok.

S: Ah ok.

M: Mais normalement di nanu la jox. Leggi nyoom, carnet bi da ma koy jend. [35:31]Pour [nom de l’institution omis] mille francs. Leggi nak boo amee carnet, chaque mois, dangay fay mille francs pour ticket. Carnet bi su reree dangay jendat beneen temps, pour jendat beneen carnet. Su fesee dangay jendat beneen carnet mille francs. Mais bilan moom doo ko fay.

M: But normally they will give it to you. Now them, I buy the health notebook. For [institution name removed] 1000 francs. Now then when you have your notebook, every month, you’ll pay 1000 francs for the ticket. If you lose the notebook you’ll buy another, to buy another notebook. If it gets full you’ll buy another notebook for 1000 francs. But you don’t pay for the exam.

S: C’est gratuit.

S: It’s free.

M: Loolu moom doo fay c’est gratuit. Mais carnet bi, sama xalat man, njerin bi actuellement, di nga men a xol sa biir u yaram. Mais bu fekkee ne police, agents, walla homme de loi, [36] ammul benn lien ci loi bi. Xanaa consultations bi ngay def pour xol sa yaram rek, soo amee IST walla VIH walla noonu, pour loolu rek la.

M: That, well, you don’t pay, it’s free. But the notebook, my own perspective is, currently its importance is that they can examine your health. But if it’s a matter of police, agents, or men of the law, there is not one connection to the law. Maybe the consultations you do to examine your health, to see if you have STIs or HIV or something. That is all that it’s for.

S: Les ARVs sont gratuit.

S: ARVs are free.

M: Les ARVs sont gratuit. Les ARVs sont gratuit.

M: ARVs are free. ARVs are free.

KD:Les ARVs sont gratuit

KD:ARVs are free.

M: Les ARVs sont gratuit. Le dépistage est gratuit.

M: ARVs are free. HIV testing is free.

S: Ticket bi c’est pas gratuit de.

S: The ticket is not free, eh.

M: Non ticket bi c’est mille francs, chaque mois mille francs.

M: No the ticket is 1000 francs, every month 1000 francs.

KD:Le ticket mooy lan?

KD:What does ticket mean?

M: Ticket consultation.

M: Ticket for the visit.

KD:Kon, consultation dangay faay mille francs, mais pour bilan, dépistage, ak ARVs, doo fay.

KD:So, you pay 1000 francs for the consultation. But for the exam, HIV testing, and ARVs, you don’t pay.

Y et M: Non non.

Y and M: No  no.

M: Ticket, avant c’était 500 francs. Avant c’était 500 francs. Mais maintenait [inaudible] c’est mille francs chez nous. Mais il y a d’autres districts où c’est 500 francs.

M: The ticket, before it was 500 francs. Before it was 500 francs. But now [inaudible] it’s 1000 francs for us. But there are other districts where it’s 500 francs.

S: Fooy loolu?

S: Where is that?

[N et Y discutent entre eux doucement. Leurs paroles n’ont pas été captées par l’enregistreur.]

[N and Y discuss among themselves softly. Their words are not picked up by recorder.]

KD:  OK Loolu leer na merci beaucoup.

KD:  OK that’s very clear, thank you very much.

K: Fleur did you want to ask your question?

K: Fleur ndax danga beggoon lajj sa question?

F:Thank you. And I appreciate that question too. Just knowing that like yah the costs of the notebook are, it’s not just dissimilar from like, house arrest in the US. How like people have to pay for their own, to be monitored and surveilled. But the question I was going to ask was sort of connected to what we were discussing, just knowing that the police are not going to be engaged in like keeping people safe, and knowing that there are so many incidents of violence and even like exploitation. What are the ways that sex workers in Sénégal keep each other safe? What are the strategies being used?

F:Merci. J’apprécie cette question aussi. Juste le fait de savoir que les frais du carnet sont, ça ressemble à l’assignation à domicile aux Etats-Unis. C’est à dire, le fait que les gens doivent payer pour leurs propres, pour être suivis et surveillés. Mais la question que je voulais poser est liée à ce qu’on vient de discuter, sachant que la police ne s’engage pas à protéger la sécurité du people, et sachant qu’il y a tant d’exemples de violence et même d’exploitation. Quelles sont les stratégies à travers lesquelles les PS au Sénégal protègent ses pairs ? Quelles stratégies sont utilisées ?

M: Mais ni nu men a jappalante, lenn rek lanu men a def. Parce ce que am na nu xamul, am na PS nu xam ne nyoom, nyoom xam unu, bunu demee police, xamunu seen droits. Danu nekk di patiner. Bunu lajjee xalis, fekk amunu xalis, police di nanu leen yoobu. Bu nu leen yoobu rek leggi, am na seen morom PS yu fa nekk. Nyoom yeneen topp. Bu nu leen toppee –

M: But how we protect and help each other, there’s only one thing we can do. Because there are some who don’t know, there are sex workers who don’t know that they, they don’t know, when they go to the police, they don’t know their rights. They struggle. If they’re asked for money, and it turns out they don’t have any money, the police can take them away. But when they’re taken now, there are their sex worker peers who meet them there. They follow them. When they follow them –

S: Nu proteger leen

S: They protect them.

M: Fekk nyoom, c’est à dire, montant bi nuy lajj, men nanu ko cotiser –

M: Because them, that is to say, the sum that’s demanded, they can pool their money together –

S: Jox leen nu laisse.

S: Give it to them so they leave them alone.

M: Jox leen ko, pour nu men a leen baay. Loolu lanu men a def. Mais bu fekkee ne dangay gniow, te nekkoo en règles, ou bien da nga defoon benn délit, boobu moom, di nanu cotiser pour l’avocat. Benn.  Naari, le temps que da nu juger, di nanu togg, bokk, indi loxo. (40:45)

M: Give it to them, so they can be left alone. That’s what we can do. But if they come and are not following the rules, or else they commit some crime, in that case, we can pool money for the lawyer. First. Second, in the time it takes to make a judgement, we can cook, share, and extend a hand.

[Interpretor’s note – In my live interpretation/translation into English, I failed to include the part about pooling money to help comrades. My sincere apologies for that.]

Note : j’ai oublié de partager ton commentaire à propos de la cotisation quand j’ai fait la traduction. Je présente mes excuses.

S: Non danu manquer coté boobu.

S: No we’re kind of lacking on that front.

M: Coté boobu moom –

M: On that front, well –

S: Mais man –

S: But I –

M: Ku yeggee, parce-ce que nit ki men na am problème, te kenn du fa yeg.  Mais par exemple, am na nyoo xam ne, ku am problème rek, automatiquement di na woote. Am na nu may woo, am na nuy woo Sana, am na nuy woo personne de resource [titre omis]. Solidarité. Danu wootante.  Xol lu nuy def. Solidarité boobu am na.

M: Whoever can help, because if a person has a problem and no one helps them. But for example, there are people who you know, who just have a problem, and automatically they’ll call. There are some who call me, some who call Sana, some who call the resource aid [title omitted]. Solidarity. We call each other. Pay attention to what we’re doing. We have that solidarity.

S: Comme man sama coté ni. Police bu gniowoon fi, xam nga annonce laa def. Nyepp nu xam sama numéro. Ma ne leen, li la sol, li la sol, li la sol. Da ma leen di proteger. Leggi nak, du coup, client buy gniow, da nu taxaw ci balcon bi nu xol client bi. Di nanu xam ne kii policier bi la. Parce-ce que moo joogé ci Sana leggi. Kon da nu communiquer sunu biir. Parce-ce que lekk na ci mann benn cinq mille walla cinquinte mille, exemple, ma beggul mu lekk ci sama bennen morom. Mais damay woote, ma ne, Khady, policier bi, muungi ci terrain bi. Leggi lii la sol, lii la sol. Fais attention. Khady day baay xelam ci loolu. Khady woo keneen, keneen woo keneen. Kon dunu yaq jour boobu noonu. Noonu lanuy defe.

S: Like me on my end. When the police came here, you know I had made an advertisement. Everyone knows my phone number. I told people, they’re wearing this, this and this. I protect them. Now then, the minute the client approaches, we stand out on the balcony and look at the client. Others will be able to know that this is a police officer. Because the person will have come from Sana’s place. We communicate among ourselves. So as an example, say they ate 5 thousand or 50 thousand of my money, and I don’t want them to eat my colleague’s money. So I call and say, “Khady, there’s a police officer on the soccer field. Now, he’s wearing this and this. Pay attention.” Khady will give thought to that. Khady calls this person, this person calls someone else. So they won’t ruin that day. That’s how we do it.

M: Noonu lanu defe. [42]

M: That’s how we do it.

S: Noonu lanu defe. Bunu gniowee ci man, noonu laay partager. Noonu lanuy defe.

S: That’s how we do it. When they come to me, that’s how I share information. That’s how we do it.

KD:Dangay woote yeneen PS.

KD:You call other sex workers.

S: Partage, waaw. Ma ne leen, li ak li, muungi ci terrain. Ki, Khady, yeere bu gris la sol. Sol na dal yu gris. Automatiquement su gniowee day xol ci balcon bi, boo gisee ku sol gris, daal yu gris, mu ne Policer baangi ni. Kon du ko recevoir. Parce-ce que day xam ne gniowul pour liguey. Da fa gniow pour jel xalis. Noonu lay deme.

S: Sharing, yes. I tell them, this and this, he’s on the soccer field. This person, Khady, is wearing gray clothes. Is wearing grey shows. Automatically if they come, you’ll look out the balcony, and when you see someone wearing gray, you’ll say to yourself, there’s the police officer. So you won’t let them in. Because you know that they didn’t come for work. They came to take money. That’s how it goes.

M: Sa, dangay faay sa portable. Bu la woowee doo ko jel.

M: Your, you’ll turn off your cell phone. When they call you, you won’t answer them.

S: Walla nga faay sa portable. Doo ko jel. Dangay xol, men nga xar. Day dem après.

S: Or you turn off your cell phone. You don’t pick up. You’ll look around, you can wait. After, they’ll leave.

K: I know that we’re coming up on time. And I know that it is a holiday and that they have some celebrations to prepare for. They talked about needing time to prepare meals and prepare for gatherings, so I want to respect that very much, but I was wondering if you could again Khady, convey appreciation and thanks, and that this again just feels like one more entry point into more conversation at another point for all of us. And that yah, I hear so much, there’s so much international similarity and so much difference. And it’s so incKiraibly, I feel very, very grateful to be learning, and to be sharing in this space. If you wouldn’t mind conveying that as my kind of like well wishes for their celebration [inaudible @ 46:08…

I think I heard “or something”].

K: Je sais que notre temps est presque écolé. Et je sais que c’est une journée de fête et qu’elles doivent préparer les célébrations Elles ont indiqué qu’elles ont besoin de temps pour préparer le repas et préparer la fête, donc je voudrais bien respecter cela. Mais je voudrais que Khady, encore une fois, tu puisses leur dire que je les apprécie et leur remercie, et que pour nous, cette conversation est un point d’entrée à plus de discussion la prochaine fois. Et en plus, ce qui me frappe est que, il y a tant de similarités internationales et tant de différences. Et c’est tellement, je me sens très, très reconnaissant de pouvoir apprendre et partager à travers cette discussion. S’il ne te dérange pas de communiquer cela et aussi les souhaiter une bonne fête de ma part.

KD:  Kira ne na ne xam na ne leggi 18 hr moo jot et xam na ne yeen da ngeen wara preparer repas bi pour Tamxarit, kon moom da fa begg –

KD:  Kira said that it’s almost 6 pm and they know that you need to prepare the meal for Tamxarit, so they want to –

M: Waaw, cere.

M: Yes, millet couscous.

S: Sunu nouvelle an la. Nouvelle an.

S: It’s our new year. New years.

KD: Waaw nouvelle an bi, voilà.

KD:Yes the new year, right.

M: Xam nga 31 Décembre c’est pour les Chrétiens. Mais Tamxarit, moom mooy fin d’année Musulmans yi. Mooy fin d’année.

M: You know December 31^st is for the Christians. But Tamxarit, that is the end of the year for Muslims. It’s the end of the year.

M: Waaw parce-ce que benn question rek lanu répondre.

M: Yes because we only responded to one question

KD:Waaw degg la.

KD:Yes it’s true.

M: Benn question.

M: One question.

KD: Waaw, waaw. Et xanaa begg ngeen xam seen situation tamit xanaa walla?

KD: Yes, yes. And maybe would you want to know about their situation too, or?

M: Waaw waaw. Nyoom sax, begg naa ko xam. Ba tey ci question u carnet. Seen loi bi ba tey. Foofu, par rapport à la loi.

M: Yes yes. I would like to know about them. Even now we have the question of notebooks. And for them, their laws now. Over there, regarding the law.

KD: So Maya  said yah like we only got through one question [laughter].

KD: Alors Maya  a dit, on n’a répondu qu’à une question [rires].

F: And the follow up question

F: Et la question complémentaire.

KD: And follow up questions yes.

Et des questions complémentaires, oui.

[laughter]

[rires]

F: Not just [unintelligible] questions.

[Overlapped by laughter and cross talk, so I’m not positive I heard right here]

F: Pas seulement [inaudible] des questions.

M: Non par rapport à la loi rek. Ci première question bi lanu nekk ba leggi. Ci problèmes u loi bi lanu nekk ba leggi. Leggi nak, seen loi yi par rapport à sunuy bos. Ndax benn la walla du benn? Loolu laa begg a xam.

M: No, regarding the law though. We’re still on the first question. We’re still on problems with the law. Now then, your laws in relation to ours. Are they the same or are they not the same? That’s what I would like to know.

S: Foofu am na nu jel carnet u pas? Ak visites yi.

S: Over there, are there people who do use a health notebook and those who don’t ? And the visits.

M: Ak visites yi ak yooyu.

M: And the visits and such.

S: Nu xam, nu xol, échange bi nu muy mel.

S: Let’s know, let’s see, what this exchange brings up.

[49:30 discussion of schedule and time constraints]

[49:30 discussion de l’horaire et des contraintes de temps.

F: I can also say very quickly that we don’t have health notebooks because it’s not, we have full criminalization in the United States, so there aren’t even like, there are no legal workers. That said, when Maya  and Sana were talking about, you know, providing names and photos and all of that essentially registering with the government, it did remind me, and I think I’ve shaKira this before but not in one of our recorded conversations, about legislation that was proposed in Hawaii this past year to essentially, you know, if someone wanted to exit the sex industry. So that’s really the focus here. There are a lot of organizations and even governments [inaudible – I couldn’t make out 50:51-50:56] essentially convincing people to leave the sex industry, mostly not meeting their material needs. [inaudible – I couldn’t make out 51:02] this legislation in Hawaii was going to, and I think it failed, but would have paid people 2000 dollars a month to leave.

F: Je peux dire rapidement que nous n’avons pas de carnet sanitaire parce ce que il n’est pas, nous avons la criminalisation complète aux États-Unis, alors il n’y a même pas, il n’y a pas de travailleurs légaux. Cela étant dit, ce que Maya  et Sana viennent de dire, tu sais, le fait de donner son nom et sa photo et tout ça, en effet enregistrer auprès du gouvernement, il m’a fait penser, et je pense que j’avais déjà partagé ça mais ce n’était pas dans une de nos conversations enregistrées, à propos de la législation qui a été proposée à Hawaii l’année dernière pour, en effet, tu sais, si quelqu’un veut quitter l’industrie du sexe. Ça porte essentiellement sur cet aspect. Il y a beaucoup d’organisations et même de gouvernements [inaudible] en effet pour convaincre les gens de quitter l’industrie du sexe, sans satisfaire leurs besoins pour la plupart. [Inaudible] cette législation à Hawaii visait à, et je pense qu’elle a échoué, mais elle aurait payé des gens 2000 dollars par mois pour quitter.

KD: Oh sorry, I didn’t hear that last bit. You were saying, I heard you say, not meeting material needs. What did you say after that?

KD: Je m’excuse, je n’ai pas entendu la dernière partie. Tu disais, j’ai entendu que tu disais, ne satisfaire pas les besoins matériaux. Et qu’est-ce que tu as dit après ?

F:Oh I don’t remember exactly but –

F: Ah, je ne me souviens pas exactement mais –

KD: Sorry.

KD: Désolée.

F: This particular legislation did propose a 2000 dollar a month stipend and the catch was essentially very similarly registering with the government and having to share a name, essentially being on the list, which is very dangerous, especially knowing that laws do change, and that the police and the state don’t have our interest, or aren’t looking to protect people. It’s again similar as what Sana and Maya  described. Like, it’s about control. How do we get you to do what we want you to do, rather than about keeping people safe. There are harm reduction organizations. So there are some organizations that work with folks who are engaged in criminalized work, whether that’s like drug using, or selling sex. But for the most part, yeah it’s just criminalized here.

F:Cette législations a proposé une bourse de 2000 dollars par mois et le piège était, en principe, pareil à l’enregistrement auprès du gouvernement dans la mesure où tu donnes ton nom, c’est-à-dire, tu es inscrit sur la liste, ce qui est très dangereux, surtout étant donné que les lois changent, et que la police et l’état ne fonctionnent pas dans notre intérêt, ou ne visent pas à protéger les gens. Encore une fois ça rappelle à ce que Sana et Maya  discutaient. C’est à dire, il s’agit du contrôle. Comment te forcer à faire ce que nous voulons que tu fasses. Il ne s’agit pas de la protection ou de la sécurité. Il y a quelques organisations dans le domaine de la réduction des risques. Alors il y a des organisations qui travaillent avec des gens qui sont engagés dans le travail criminalisé, que ce soit l’usage des drogues ou la vente du sexe. Mais pour la plupart, oui, c’est criminalisé ici.

K: Khady I would also add with regard to registries, there are several states in the United States that participate in including sex workers who are typically, I don’t want to misquote this, but typically it’s similar to like, three strikes arrests for prostitution-related charges or trafficking-related charges, and I think it’s seven states now, but I can look that up for you, that participate in including offending prostitutes right, so sex workers who have been entrapped by or criminalized by, or caught up in the carceral system, that are then put on sex offender registries. And that, Fleur maybe you can remember if it’s, I think it’s still seven states, have those registries. But that comes with all sorts of other kind of impactful, harmful, dangerous – not just having your name, right, and your address, but you can’t move certain places. If you have children, this is like, you can imagine the impact of this. So I can look that up if they are interested in knowing that aspect of criminalizing law. That’s something to make note of as well, that even if we don’t have, kind of codified in law these health notebook type things, there are other mechanisms that states will put on their books to kind of regulate the movement and bodies of sex working people. And that our government usually equates sex working people either as helpless victims in the law or perpetrating, like, mastermind criminals. Like we have this dichotomy in our law, and so it plays out like that, like either you’re a sex offender who is like a predator, or you are only ever a woman or a girl in need of saving, because, you know, you don’t have agency or autonomy, right, to be making these decisions. So I would add, just to color in some of everything that Fleur said, like that too manifests in practice in our legal system.

K: Khady j’ajouterais aussi à propos des registres, il y a beaucoup d’états aux États-Unis qui participent à l’inclusion des PS qui sont, je ne veux pas mal citer, mais ça ressemble aux arrestations des trois fautes pour des accusations liées à la prostitution ou à la traite d’être humain, et je pense qu’il y a sept états maintenant, mais je peux chercher cela pour vous, qui participent à l’inclusion des prostituées délictueuses, donc les travailleuses du sexe qui ont été piégées ou criminalisées par, ou entrées dans le système carcéral, qui ont été ensuite inscrits sur les registres des délinquants sexuels. Et ça, Fleur peut-être tu peux te souvenir s’il s’agit de, je pense ce qu’il y a toujours sept états qui ont ces registres. Mais il y a tant d’effets percutants, néfastes, dangereux, pas seulement le fait d’inscrire ton nom et adresse, mais tu ne peux pas déménager à certains endroits. Si tu as des enfants, c’est comme, tu peux imaginer l’impact. Alors je peux le chercher si elles s’intéressent à connaitre cet aspect de la criminalisation. C’est quelque chose à noter aussi, que même si nous n’avons pas cette loi codifiée, ces genres de carnets sanitaires, il y a d’autres mécanismes que les états vont employer pour contrôler le mouvement et les corps des gens qui travaillent dans l’industrie du sexe. Et que notre gouvernement dit que les PS sont soit ay victimes qui n’ont pas d’autonomie, ou bien des criminelles tout puissantes. C’est à dire, nous avons cette dichotomie dans notre loi, comme si soit tu es un délinquant sexuel qui ressemble à un predateur, ou bien tu es une femme ou une jeune fille qui doit être sauvée, tu sais, parce-ce que tu n’as pas de pouvoir ou d’autonomie pour faire ces décisions. Alors j’ajouterais, pour ajouter à ce que Fleur vient de dire, que ça aussi se voit dans notre système juridique.

59:23

S: Trois délits, même [inaudible] bi, boo nekkee PS, trois délits quoi.

S: Three strikes, even [inaudible], if you’re a sex worker, it’s three strikes.

M: Trois délits boo xam ne, tej nanu.

M: Three strikes and you know, they lock you up.

S: Trois délits bu fekkee ne en tant que PS walla drogue bi ak yepp? J’ai pas compris trois délits.

S: Three strikes as in sex workers or drugs and everything? I didn’t understand three strikes.

K: Three strikes laws, I think my partner is right here and knows this for a fact. One second – three strikes laws come out of the 1990s, like, and that’s even though they’re not codified necessarily everywhere, it’s become like an elective policing, court-based – the like three strikes laws.

[Voice of Kira’s partner]  Started in California. [Voice of Kira’s partner] Automatic life sentence in California, that’s right. So, three strikes laws kind of got phrased, did get its start in California, and that was kind of a policing escalation, and a court-based escalation of sentencing. And we’ve seen that, like for instance the way that that plays out in Cook county where I am just right now in Chicago, around prostitution-related charges, is that you know the first two arrests that you might have around a prostitution-related charge, they might make you do the like, the day school, the hooker day school, what we S workers [KD: or was it  “as workers”?] call it.

Where it’s like, they give you cold fried chicken, and they make you watch a video, and they tell you to like turn your life around. And they usually have some kind of like Christian-based ministry group come and give you pamphlets, and they give you like, they make you stay in jail until you can like get out, or they give you the slap on the wrist and then kind of, we call it Catch and Release. And that will happen like your first two times. But your third time, you’re probably going to do an extended amount of time. You’re probably going to pay a larger fine and/or that option, the like quote unquote, what is it called, the charitable option, right, that the county sees itself giving you, of like, the exit school or exit program, that’s not available to you anymore. And now you’re deemed like, a real criminal. And so that’s an example of like, it’s not technically a three strikes policy, but it plays out in this really strange way, all across the United States. And it’s just a way of escalating sentencing. Does that make more sense?

K: Les lois des trois fautes, je crois que mon partenaire est juste à côté et le sait sans aucun doute. Un moment – les lois de trois fautes viennent des années 1990s, te, même si elles ne sont pas nécessairement codifiées partout, elle est devenue une façon de maintien de l’ordre électif, basé sur les tribunaux – comme les lois des trois fautes.

[Voix du partenaire de Kira] A commencé en Californie. [La voix du partenaire de Kira]. Une peine à vie automatique en Californie, c’est ça. Donc, les lois des trois fautes ont été en quelque sorte formulées, ont commencé en Californie, et c’était une sorte d’escalade policière et une escalade judiciaire des peines. Et on a vu que, par exemple la manière dans laquelle ça marche à Cook county ou j’habite actuellement à Chicago, autour d’accusations liées à la prostitution, c’est que, tu sais, les deux premières arrestations que vous pourriez rencontrer autour d’une accusation liée à la prostitution, ils peuvent demander que tu fasses l’école de jour, l’école de jour des prostitués, d’après ce que les travailleuses S l’appellent.

Où c’est comme, ils te donnent du poulet frit froid, et ils te font regarder un vidéo, et ils vous disent qu’il faut changer ta mode de vivre. Et ils ont une sorte de groupe de ministère Chrétien qui vient te donner des brochures, et ils vous donnent comme, ils te font rester en prison jusqu’à ce que tu voulusses sortir, ou ils te donnent une tape sur les doigts et puis, nous l’appelons “Catch and Release.” Et cela s’applique aux deux premières fois. Mais la troisième fois, vous allez probablement passer plus de temps en prison. Vous allez probablement payer une amende plus lourde et/ou cette possibilité, entre guillemets, comment s’appelle-t-elle, l’option caritative, tu vois, que le district pense qu’il te donne, l’école de sortie, ou bien le programme de sortie, tu n’auras plus accès. Et maintenant, on te considère un vrai criminel. Et donc c’est un exemple, ce n’est pas exactement une politique des trois fautes, mais ça se passe de cette manière tellement bizarre, partout aux États-Unis. Et ce n’est qu’un moyen d’augmenter les peines. Est-ce que ça fait plus de sens ?

M: Da nu ne bandit nga.

M: They say that you’re a criminal.

S: Ci booba, danu utiliser église bi.

S: They use the church for that.

KD:Waaw voilà.

KD:Yes that’s it.

S: Danuy utiliser église bi.

S: They use the church.

KD:Waaw voilà.

KD:Yes that’s right.

S: Danuy utiliser église bi. Danuy xam ne kii PS la.

S: They use the church. They know that she, she’s a sex worker.

KD:Voilà, c’est comme église day gniow, day jox ay fiches ak information, “li nga def baaxul, da nga war a – 

KD:Right, it’s like, the church comes and gives flyers with messages, “what you’re doing is bad, you have to –

S: Même Musulmans day def noonu parfois de. Bunu xamee li danga mel ni ku lay moytu.

S: Even Muslims do that sometimes. When they know this about you, you become someone they avoid.

KD: Waaw, waaw.

KD: yes, yes.

M: Nyoom, trois délits la. D’abord danu lay conseiller. Mais après, comme si bandit nga. [inaudible]

M: Then, it’s three strikes. First they give you advice. But later, it’s as if you’re a bandit. [inaudible]

M: Bu de nun la, bu dee Sénégal, soo defee benn délit,  men nanu la tejj. Parce-ce que loi PS ak loi population générale benn la. La loi, benn la, par rapport à la loi population générale. Par rapport à la population générale, mooy PS, UD yi, ak neenen yi, seen loi bi benn la.

M: If it was us, if it was Sénégal, if you commit one offense, they can lock you up. Because the law for sex workers and the law for the general population is the same. The law is the same, in relation to the law for the general population. In relation to the general population, for sex workers and drug users and others, the law is the same.

KD:Kon boo defee benn délit, men nanu la tejj.

KD:So if you commit one offense they can lock you up.

M: Waaw ça dépend. Soo amee avocat bu baax, mais men na bun a lourd peine. Men nga am benn mois, ak ceci

M: Yes it depends. If you have a good lawyer, you can avoid a harsh sentence. You could have one month or something.

S: Walla 15 jours

S: Or 15 days.

M: Walla 15 jours fermé. Walla un mois, six mois.

M: Or 15 days in custody. Or one month, six months.

S: Mais peine bi du lourd.

S: But the sentence won’t be severe.

M: Du nekk peine bu lourd. Avertissmenet lay donne. Du nekk peine bu lourd. Mais boo amatee, peine bi day gen a –

M: It won’t be a severe sentence. It’s like a warning. It won’t be a severe sentence. But if you have another, the sentence will be more –

S: Ok Khady, boo leen waxee loolu, ne ko nun tamit, nuungi content chaque fois ci seen waxtaan di nanu ci jang. Xamuma ba xam sunu waxtaan, nyoom tamit nyuungi ci jang. Da nu am partage bu baax. Surtout Kira. Kira day partager bu baax. C’est très important. Par rapport ak moom, xam na lu bere ci États-unis lu nekk foofu, pourtant dem unu foofu. Du degg? Chaque waxtaan danu ci jang lu bere. Personellement danuy jang lu bere. Contaan nanu torop. Fleur aussi baaxne. Mais Kira moom c’est le meilleur.

S: Ok Khady, when you tell them that, tell them also that we too, we’re happy with the conversation. Every time, we always learn something. I don’t know whether with our conversation, they also learn something. We have a great exchange. Especially Kira. Kira shares really well. That’s very important. Regarding them, they know a lot about the United States and what it’s like, whereas we haven’t been there. Right? Every conversation we learn a lot. Personally we learn a lot. We’re very pleased. Fleur is also great. But Kira is the best.

KD : Begg nga ma wax loolu de ?

KD : Do you want me to say that ?

S: Non jow uma de. Point de vue lanuy wax rek. Ay points de vue.

S: No I’m not gossiping. We’re just sharing points of view. Just points of view.

M: Da nu xame, Fleur moo gen a ki,

M: We’re saying that Fleur is more, what is it,

S: Non da ma remarquer naari causéries. Kira moo gen a participer. Parce-ce que ci moom lanu gen a jang. Kee, Fleur, danuy jang, mais c’est un peu lent. Mais kii da fay dugg, day xot dal. Day xotal ba ci biir. Kon du coup di nanu xam realités u Amerik. Voilà. Peut-etre kii moo gen a agé. Moo gen a xam milieu bi. Peut-etre loolu la tamit. Parce-ce que am na questions yoo xamantane duma ko xam. Kii da fa ko xam. Comprends nga? No différence bi loolu la moom. Loolu mootax ma expliquer.

S: No I noticed in the two conversations. Kira participates more. Because we learn more from them. The other one, Fleur, teaches us things too, but it’s a little slow. But the other really dives in, goes deep. They go all the way to the core of it. So all of a sudden we know America’s realities. There it is. Maybe they’re older, they know the environment more. Maybe it’s that as well. Because there are questions that I don’t know. But she [Maya ] knows. You understand? No that’s the difference. That’s what I wanted to explain.

M: Mais c’est bon.

M: But it’s good.

S: C’est bon.

S: It’s good.

M: Content nanu. Parce-ce que normalement am na trois questions. Mais benn question lanu répondre.

M: We’re pleased. Because normally there are three questions. But we only answered one.

S: Benn question rek lanu wax.

S: We only talked about one question.

M: Xanaa beneen date bi inshallah. Comme ça nu kii, bu dee am satisfaction, répondre nanu bu baax. Te nyoom tamit repondre nanu ci, ba nu gis ko.

M: Maybe on the next date, if Allah wills it. This way we, if they’re satisfied that we responded well. And they also responded well so we see things more clearly.

S: Waaw. Content nanu ci réponses yi torop.

S: Yes. We’re so happy with the answers.

M: Waaxleen lepp te remercier leen bu baax. Parce-ce que trois questions la. Waaye benn question lanu répondre. Des na deux questions après. Les dernières deux questions rek, men nanu japp beneen jour, nu wax nu, après nu dajewat inshallah.

M:Tell them everything and thank them so much.. Because there are three questions. But we only answered one. Two questions are left now. The last two questions, we can pick another day. They can let us know. After we will meet again if Allah wills it.

S: Sincèrement waxtaan –

S: Sincerely, the conversation –

M: Vraiment content nanu dal. J’espère bien qu’on a bien répondu aux questions aussi.

M: We’re truly pleased. I hope also that we too answered the questions well.

KD:Waaw waaw dégg la.

KD:Yes, yes it’s true.

M: Questions yi nu posées répondre nanu bu baax.

M: They responded really well to the questions we asked.

S: Content nanu waaw.

Yes, we’re pleased.

M: Nu def close.

M: So we can conclude.

S: Thank you very much. Sincèrement. Ne ko content nanu torop. Ne ko nu jang Wolof nu gniow Sénégal. Kira mu jang Wolof gniow Sénégal vacances.

S: Thank you very much. Sincerely. Tell them that we’re so pleased. Tell them they should learn Wolof and come to Sénégal. Kira should learn Wolof and come to Sénégal for vacation.

M: Ak Fleur yepp.

M: And Fleur and everybody.

S: Ne ko nu jang Wolof nu gniow Sénégal. OK?

S: Tell them to learn Wolof and come to Sénégal. OK?

F:Yes, retreat in Sénégal!

F:Oui, vacances au Sénégal!

[laughter]

[rires]

K: I accept this invitation. [KD: I’m 99% sure this was Kira’s voice!]

K: J’accepte cette invitation.

S: Inshallah

S: If Allah wills it.

[overlapping voices]

[les voix se superposent]

S: Merci beaucoup.

S: Thank you very much.

M: Merci.

M: Thank you.

F:Happy new year.

F:Bonne année.

[overlapping voices]

[les voix se superposent]

S: Ah Khady, da fa begg nu def invitation? OK amul probleme. Dinanu waxtaan. Nu jang Wolof après nu gniow. Sinon nu jang Francais après nu gniow. Su fekkee ne Anglais la day difficil torop.

S: Ah Khady, they want an invitation? Ok no problem. After we’ll discuss. They’ll learn Wolof and come, or learn French and then come. If they speak only English that would be too difficult.

F: Got it.

F:Bien compris.

KD: Sana doo ma inviter? [rires] OK, anyway.

KD: Sana you’re not inviting me too? [laughs]OK, anyway

S: Ma inviter la yaw, ma inviter la?

S: Shall I invite you, shall I invite you?

KD:Waaw waaw

KD:Yes yes.

M: Gniowal nu lekk cere.

M: Come and we’ll eat millet couscous.

S: Waaw gniowal.

S: Yes come.

M: Gniowal nu lekk cere.

M: Come and we’ll eat millet couscous.

S: Men nga tokk ba annee prochaine, nuungiy gniow nu degg Wolof moo gen. Walla nu and ak yaw gniow vaccances.

S: You can wait a year so that they come when they understand Wolof, that would be better. Or you come with them and come for vacation.

F:How do I say happy new year in Wolof?

F:Comment dit-on Bonne Année en Wolof?

M: Gniowal nu lekk cere. Gniowal nu lekk cere.

M: Come over and eat millet. Come over and eat millet.

KD:Danu ne deweneti.

KD:They say happy new year.

[overlapping voices, goodbyes]

[Les vois se superposent et disent au revoir]

M: Bonne année. Merci.

M: Happy new year. Thank you.

S: Naka lanuy waxe bonne année en Anglais?

S: How do we say happy new year in English?

KD:Nu ne, Happy New Year.

KD:They say, Happy New Year.

S: Happy New Year.

M: Happy New Year.

Voices overlap, saying goodbye and sending good wishes.

Les vois se superposent, disant au revoir et envoyant des bons voeux.

---

[1] A couple thoughts about how to present the word “sutura” – We could translate sutura directly, or we could put the wolof word sutura first and then put the English translation in parenthesis. // on peut traduire le mote sutura directement, ou bien on peut utiliser le mot “sutura” en wolof d’abord et après on met la traduction Anglaise en parenthèse.

[2] About 140 US Dollars.

[3] Roughly 2 US dollars.